Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 26, 2012 2:28:25 GMT
One can be a Mason and actually express the Masonic virtues in any economic or political system. True, even in a ghetto, a concentration camp or hell. I don't agree with the declarative statement. I didn't understand the questions.Then I will leave it to Rembrandt to explain his declarative statement (the questions are to be understood in the context of the statement).
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 26, 2012 2:30:10 GMT
Socialism and communism are the same thing. Do you consider countries with socialist policies to be communistic?
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Post by rembrandt on Oct 26, 2012 4:01:23 GMT
Of course you will leave it to me. You had nothing to offer. Now you can dodge by acting like it is my failure. You were given ample opportunity. Still nothing at all.
So you have nothing to support your idea that communism is a better fit for Freemasonry. You offered nothing at all that actually held water.
Relief or whatever you want to call it is to derive from the decency and actions of individuals. It is not to come from the Vanguard that ensures proper adherence to the system.
It is still your game Tamrin. Do you have something or is this going to turn into another chapter of attacking ideas you don't like instead of supporting your pet ideas?
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Tamrin
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Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 26, 2012 4:52:04 GMT
I see, said the blind man. It's what I get for trying to insert myself into an ongoing discussion. If I may, and seeing other threads pertaining to Objectivism, I'll go with A = A. Masonry is, imho, intended to be exclusive - some might say elitist, but in the 21st century the connotation of that word is no longer accurate. Neither socialism nor communism apply. As Rembrandt suggests, it is about the individual - a collection of individuals. A certain caliber of individual with a particular skill set, as it were. Thus, Galt's "Atlantis" is, in some ways, a fairly reasonable comparison, although politically we are, not surprisingly, a representative democratic republic. There is, perhaps, some confusion on your part Tamrin, with respect to "relief". While Masons are charitable, Masonry is not a charity per se. Now I'll get to the sidelines and watch the fur fly. Pardon the interruption. What was offensive in posting: Then I will leave it to Rembrandt to explain his declarative statement (the questions are to be understood in the context of the statement).
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 26, 2012 4:53:31 GMT
Of course you will leave it to me. Are you suggesting I should explain your declarative statement
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Tamrin
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Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 26, 2012 4:54:04 GMT
Socialism and communism are the same thing. Do you consider countries with socialist policies to be communistic?
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Tamrin
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Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 26, 2012 4:56:42 GMT
Relief or whatever you want to call it is to derive from the decency and actions of individuals. And what of cases where charity does not suffice in providing relief to victims of social injustice?
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Post by rembrandt on Oct 26, 2012 5:02:04 GMT
Yes, socialism and communism are the same thing. You can cloud it as you like but what a brave new world that has such people in it is still your pidgin. It is on you, you have failed thusfar to offer anything that even approaches your declarations of how communism is a better fit for Freemasonry.
Again, you have been afforded ample opportunity to support your allegations. You failed to do so and decided to attack other ideas instead of supporting your own. Not a surprise.
Your attempts to make it about me instead of your gradiose statements are noted, and quaint. I don't expect you to step up. I just like watch this happen. No matter how much you want to make it about something else it is still your game. Play it. Please enlighten us.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 26, 2012 19:45:08 GMT
Yes, socialism and communism are the same thing. So going beyond the Objectivist drivel "A is A", you maintain that "A is B"!? Putting aside any surprise those in the UK, Australasia and various Nordic countries might have at being told they are living under communism, I find myself in the position of Alice, who was told: 'When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, … ‘it means just what I choose it to mean’ …
(Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass) When you are through with twisting words to suit your purposes, I will be ready for a rational discussion.
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Post by rembrandt on Oct 27, 2012 1:01:42 GMT
No I don't go to a land in which A is B. I will not permit you the opportunity to make this about me, you will need my help for that. History speaks for itself.
It is your silly notion that virtue should be forced. You defend it, don't make it about me. So let's not talk about all the horrible twisting of words that I may be doing. That should not matter to your great thesis that will finally reveal whatever you have been unable to. Please proceed sir, don't let me stop you any longer.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 27, 2012 2:21:12 GMT
Yes, socialism and communism are the same thing. When you are through with twisting words to suit your purposes, I will be ready for a rational discussion. In the meantime, others may choose to reflect on an earlier post. The first comment to make is that socialism is not communism, and along side that it is a regrettable tendency for many Americans not to understand the difference. It often comes as a surprise that the overwhelming majority of industrialised, Western nations have been profoundly influenced by 'Socialist' notions for the majority of the 20th Century. Principles such as the 40 hour week, free universal health care, automatic pension rights and livable unemployment relief formed the mainstay of European social and political consciousness, irrespective of whether the Right or the Left were in power. This is the system I consider to be a better fit with the principles espoused within UGLE amity Freemasonry than with Objectivism, Libertarianism or laissez-faire capitalism.
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Post by rembrandt on Oct 27, 2012 6:29:01 GMT
So you made it clear with no information that communism is not socialism. At least that is solved now. Sure it is a better fit, under your system, when every person can be hammered into submission.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 27, 2012 7:45:03 GMT
So you made it clear with no information that communism is not socialism. At least that is solved now. Sure it is a better fit, under your system, when every person can be hammered into submission. Wonderful! At long last you agree "A is not B." Now please describe how every person is "hammered into submission" by the evil "tyranny of the majority" and please describe your preferred alternative to democracy, to which every person will willingly subscribe.
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Post by rembrandt on Oct 27, 2012 15:54:21 GMT
Again, not about me. How will you make everyone a Mason or at least make everyone practice Masonic virtues?
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Post by maximus on Oct 27, 2012 19:42:44 GMT
Yes, socialism and communism are the same thing. In the meantime, others may choose to reflect on an earlier post. The first comment to make is that socialism is not communism, and along side that it is a regrettable tendency for many Americans not to understand the difference. It often comes as a surprise that the overwhelming majority of industrialised, Western nations have been profoundly influenced by 'Socialist' notions for the majority of the 20th Century. Principles such as the 40 hour week, free universal health care, automatic pension rights and livable unemployment relief formed the mainstay of European social and political consciousness, irrespective of whether the Right or the Left were in power. This is the system I consider to be a better fit with the principles espoused within UGLE amity Freemasonry than with Objectivism, Libertarianism or laissez-faire capitalism. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ford
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Post by maximus on Oct 27, 2012 19:44:25 GMT
And all without a labor union. Amazing. So much for your evil capitalism.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 27, 2012 19:46:09 GMT
Again, not about me. How will you make everyone a Mason or at least make everyone practice Masonic virtues? Not about me either. Who said anything about everyone having to be a Mason? Not I! By individually &/or collectively practicing and standing up for our masonic principles out of the lodge as well as we do within it, we can have some influence in reforming unjust elements of society. If the misery of our poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin
Charles Darwin
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Tamrin
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Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 27, 2012 20:20:49 GMT
And all without a labor union. Amazing. So much for your evil capitalism. Is your argument that, because not all individual capitalists had the same exploitative labour strategies or even that some were philanthropists, that their actions overall characterize laissez-faire capitalism? If so it is obviously flawed. BTW, Ford is not a unqualified good example: Ford being awarded the Grand Cross of the German Supreme Order of the Golden Eagle, 1938 Robert Owen might have been a better example.
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Post by rembrandt on Oct 27, 2012 20:45:01 GMT
So how would force everyone to practice the Masonic virtues? If it is only a few setting examples then neither a government or economic system is necessary. A government implementing forced virtue would not increase virtue because forced virtue is not virtue.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 27, 2012 21:04:34 GMT
So how would force everyone to practice the Masonic virtues? If it is only a few setting examples then neither a government or economic system is necessary. A government implementing forced virtue would not increase virtue because forced virtue is not virtue. If we CHOOSE to practice masonic virtues, we will participate and influence socio-economic outcomes, even if only by voting in favour of social justice issues.
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